Sam Ovens: 00:00 Hey, everyone. Sam Ovens here and, today, I have Clive [Girdham 00:00:03] on with us. Clive's got an interesting business, and he helps hypnotherapists get clients and with that comes helping them with technology, websites, marketing, the sales, everything that really surrounds sales and business. Clive joined Consulting Accelerator about six weeks ago now and in those six weeks, he's been able to get ... You said you did 17 strategy sessions.
Clive Girdham: 00:35 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 00:36 And you got how many clients?
Clive Girdham: 00:39 8.
Sam Ovens: 00:40 And made 20,000?
Clive Girdham: 00:43 20,000, yeah.
Sam Ovens: 00:44 Awesome.
Clive Girdham: 00:44 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 00:45 So he hasn't been in Accelerator for long, but 20,000 in six weeks is still pretty good. So on this interview, I'm interested in digging into the hypnotherapy niche, that sounds interesting.
Clive Girdham: 00:58 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 01:01 Also, how you were able to get those clients so quickly.
Clive Girdham: 01:05 Sure.
Sam Ovens: 01:06 So why don't we first of all start where you were six week ago? What were you doing, why were you interested in Consulting Accelerator?
Clive Girdham: 01:18 Okay. So 6, 7 weeks ago something kept popping up into my newsfeed on Facebook, and I think, along the lines, I must have actually clicked on to one of the adverts from someone else, and I was very, very curious. Now, normally, what I do is I'll see clients. I see face-to-face clients, maybe, ten or twelve times a week, so I've got a very comfortable practice where I'll probably clear about 8 grand a month from 10 hours a week work.
Clive Girdham: 01:56 I do a monthly mastermind with a bunch of hypnotherapists, and I'm forever giving, giving and giving. I felt, you know what? It's time to make some money from this. It's not shameless, it's just honest, because I've got a feeling I can actually do something really, really big with this.
Sam Ovens: 02:23 You felt like you had a lot to provide to people, solve a big problem, and it could be way bigger than what it was?
Clive Girdham: 02:30 I've been doing this for three years, now. I've been doing a monthly thing. I get 30 people a month online visiting my mastermind and teaching them stuff and it's free. And then I'm thinking, "Why am I being such a pro-bono bonehead?" I should get something back from this.
Sam Ovens: 02:53 How did you get into hypnotherapy to start with?
Clive Girdham: 02:57 Well, for about 28 years, I wore a suit and tie. I mean, I didn't work at [Vodafone 00:03:04] like you did, but I had a job from graduating at 22 through to being made redundant. Now, I'm mid-50s and the opportunity to get made redundant and actually have a ... Actually do something and give something back just came to me. I was counseling people who had problems, so I was an engineer. And then I was helping people.
Clive Girdham: 03:37 I ran a team with a whole range of problems. I asked my manager, "Could I get sponsored to counseling?" He said, "Nope." So, I paid my whole way through the counseling, hypnotherapy, and then I thought, "You know what? This is for me." Yeah. It only took 20 years.
Sam Ovens: 03:58 And you were a mechanical engineer?
Clive Girdham: 04:01 Electrical.
Sam Ovens: 04:02 Electrical engineer, got it.
Clive Girdham: 04:03 Yeah, yeah.
Sam Ovens: 04:04 And what made you interesting in hypnotherapy?
Clive Girdham: 04:10 I found out that way back in my university days, I went to a stage show. And I was one of the people that went up on stage. I can't remember it, but I was reminded of it. Thereafter, it became something which was a really effective form of therapy for people, so I had fun.
Sam Ovens: 04:33 Got it. And then you taught yourself it, or you paid for yourself to be taught it.
Clive Girdham: 04:40 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 04:42 What clients were you counseling or helping people with hypnotherapy? What was the use and application for it?
Clive Girdham: 04:50 Since 2009, smokers. And then up until about 2005, I was ... 2009, 2005, I was moonlighting ... 15, I was moonlighting in the evenings and weekends, helping smokers stop smoking.
Sam Ovens: 05:08 And what about at first when you first got into it? When you were made redundant, where were you applying it?
Clive Girdham: 05:18 Well, it was smokers, but I'd got into the mental health field, so now I'm a counselor. I work on a suicide prevention hotline and I got into the whole mental health area.
Sam Ovens: 05:33 Got it. You learned it and then you set up your own practice, you got clients, you're making money and all of that, and you were comfortable doing that for a while. And then you thought, "I can do something bigger with this."
Clive Girdham: 05:53 Correct. And it's been a little scratch under the skin for the last two or three years. I keep hearing it from other people because I've got a number of different income streams. I've got the hypnotherapy, the one-on-one clients, which is nice. But, I've also got an online product, which I created, and it came from running a workshop back two years ago. And I thought, "You know what? I've got 15 people here, I'm going to codify this, I'm going to create a product, I'm going to sell it."
Clive Girdham: 06:29 I sold about two or three hundred. No, no, 247 units and made about 30 Euran from that. I thought, "Oh! This is going to work." That's where ... The missing link for me was Facebook adverts because I had no idea how to do Facebook adverts. What attracted me, when I think about it, to your course was the Facebook adverts. I just knew that if I took my product, used Facebook advertising, then I could something with it.
Sam Ovens: 07:06 Got it.
Clive Girdham: 07:07 Does that make sense?
Sam Ovens: 07:08 Yeah, it makes sense. You saw that you were able to not just do one-on-one, in-person coaching?
Clive Girdham: 07:20 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 07:21 And you've got ... What's your aspiration with it? What's your goal and vision with it?
Clive Girdham: 07:33 This year is better, version one of the mind mentoring program. So, 8 people, two and a half thousand dollars each, 20 grand. I've got an online portal, which I'm developing and building as I do the course. I can see it going to maybe 5, 6 times that next year.
Sam Ovens: 07:57 Got it.
Clive Girdham: 07:58 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 08:03 Tell me about how you ... When you joined accelerator and you started going through the training, what started to happen then?
Clive Girdham: 08:14 Transformation, big time. Big time. I've gone through it twice, now. What I do is I walk around all the time, I'm wearing earphones, Bluetooth things, I'm listening to it, I'm watching it, I'm hearing it. I think somewhere along the line you say, "I'm going to be in your head." And you were totally in my head. But, the revolution on the transformation for me is mindset. 100% mindset.
Clive Girdham: 08:45 I skipped through Facebook advertising because a lot of detail and most of my return is organic, totally organic. I've spent $130 bucks and I've made 30 grand. I really, really want to get that Facebook advertising nailed.
Sam Ovens: 09:08 Got it. Let's talk about picking your niche and solving the problem because you took a different view on the market. As a hypnotherapist with a practice, your view is I'm helping people with any sort of problem through hypnotherapy.
Clive Girdham: 09:28 Sure.
Sam Ovens: 09:29 But, now you decided to turn to the hypnotherapists and help them get clients.
Clive Girdham: 09:36 Yeah, exactly. What it is, is what I see is a lot of ... What I notice in human nature is a lot of people who want to help. And these people helpers actually are victims, themselves. They're over doing courses, they've thought of gurus. There's a guru out there, I've got to do his course, you've got to do this, blah, blah, blah. Then they spend 10 grand, they go home, and they sit there and wait for the phone to ring. And that, as an engineer, just gives me the shits because I can see it. I've got the logical side, you want to do your Myersbriggs, I've got the E, I've got the I, I've got the logical side of me and I've got the intuitive side of me. I just see people being taken for a ride and so that's where I think I come in.
Sam Ovens: 10:35 Got it. And did you notice that was particularly bad with hypnotherapists?
Clive Girdham: 10:41 Terrible.
Sam Ovens: 10:43 What's the typical scenario?
Clive Girdham: 10:50 Someone does a course then, full respect, they then do the ... You find someone on Facebook doing adverts about advertising. It turns out to be a click funnel kind of thing and it's just so wrong. There's somebody who's got so little life experience who's suddenly advertising you can get 40 clients this week by doing this, this, and this. And they've failed as hypnotherapists. I'm a bit of a rebel when it comes to that sort of thing.
Sam Ovens: 11:26 The actual hypnotherapists that are trying to tell hypnotherapists how to do things?
Clive Girdham: 11:31 And like you say time, and time, and time again, you've got to do the work before you create the product. And then you create the product, and then you sell the product. If you are somebody who's not actually got experience in ... I've got 9 years helping smokers, so I create a non-smoking course and I teach it. I sit there in front of 14, or 15 people and I teach it over and over again. Then, I codify it and put it online. If you're not that sort of person, then you're a fraud.
Clive Girdham: 12:02 I just got this eh in me.
Sam Ovens: 12:07 Yeah. The whole education industry, and coaching industry, has gotten like that. That's how that saying came about, though, those who can't do, teach.
Clive Girdham: 12:15 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 12:16 Because that's what's happening, but it doesn't mean that those ... The truth is that those that do teach best. But, there isn't many doers teaching, you know?
Clive Girdham: 12:26 No.
Sam Ovens: 12:27 That's what it should be. Doers should be teaching.
Clive Girdham: 12:30 Absolutely. And I've been there. Let me go to a different transformation in my life. I was a Brazilian jiu jitsu instructor and I was very good at it. But, I was shit at being a teacher. And I had to teach, I had to teach, and i have to teach, but I learned so much from that. To teach teaches you to learn, but it's a hard transition. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Ovens: 13:06 And then what did you find the main problem to be for these hypnotherapists? What do they want that they can't get?
Clive Girdham: 13:13 Same problem every time, no clients or I can't sell, I don't want to sell, I'm not good at marketing, I've got no idea about technology. The typical things you hear from every other people helper.
Sam Ovens: 13:35 How were they typically getting clients?
Clive Girdham: 13:38 Randomly, hopefully. I'm talking about they should be making ... They pay 10 grand for the course, they should be making 5 to 10 grand a month, easily. But, they're seeing two or three clients a month. So, they've got hope, they've got useless websites, which look terrible. They've got no SEO, they've got no profile on Google. I've got a very good background in that.
Sam Ovens: 14:16 What do they do with the rest of their time if they're only seeing like three clients a month?
Clive Girdham: 14:20 They go on skiing holidays, they travel, and they complain they don't have enough money.
Sam Ovens: 14:30 How do they go on holidays with three clients a month?
Clive Girdham: 14:37 Because they're hobbyists.
Sam Ovens: 14:40 But, how do they even have money to pursue a hobby?
Clive Girdham: 14:44 They've been made redundant. They find money, you know that. People find money.
Sam Ovens: 14:55 Why can't they solve their problem?
Clive Girdham: 14:57 I think that's down to a part of your sales script. How could you do this on your ... How come you're not doing this on your own? Because they lack skills around technology and self esteem.
Sam Ovens: 15:17 Why don't get the skills?
Clive Girdham: 15:21 That's my job.
Sam Ovens: 15:21 But, why can't they make it their job?
Clive Girdham: 15:23 Why can't they make it their job? I don't know. A bit of a victim mentality.
Sam Ovens: 15:35 But, they're hypnotherapists, right?
Clive Girdham: 15:37 Yeah, exactly.
Sam Ovens: 15:38 Can't they hypnotize themselves?
Clive Girdham: 15:42 It's a struggle.
Sam Ovens: 15:45 It's like a past-
Clive Girdham: 15:46 [crosstalk 00:15:46]. Sam, you know about mindset. You know about the power of the mind. But, [missing audio 00:15:53].
Sam Ovens: 15:57 It's like a blind spot for them? They think if they ... They're not aware of it?
Clive Girdham: 16:03 Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Ovens: 16:11 Got it. Yeah because most of the time, if you can define the problem, you've already pretty much found the solution, you know?
Clive Girdham: 16:18 Right.
Sam Ovens: 16:19 A lot of people can't even define what the problem is, it just ... They just know that they don't have clients, they don't know why.
Clive Girdham: 16:26 Mm-hmm (affirmative). No, you've just given me an insight, actually.
Sam Ovens: 16:33 What's that?
Clive Girdham: 16:34 About the blind spot.
Sam Ovens: 16:36 What about it?
Clive Girdham: 16:38 That they've got that idea about being able to change someone's mind about being in control of the mind, yet being unable to actually do that on themselves.
Sam Ovens: 16:53 Yeah, it's the classic one.
Clive Girdham: 16:55 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 16:56 It's why what the psychiatrists have, the doctor has. Whenever you get given a label as a person who is good at this thing, you start thinking you don't have a problem with that thing.
Clive Girdham: 17:08 Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Ovens: 17:10 Which is dangerous.
Clive Girdham: 17:11 That's good. I like that. I'm going to use that.
Sam Ovens: 17:16 Yeah, quite often the people that coach drug addiction things, they'll end up falling victim again because they start getting that halo effect where they think they're totally free of it because they're the master of it. And because they're getting so much respect from everyone else, and their advising everyone else on it, and then it gets them.
Clive Girdham: 17:45 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 17:47 Because you can't ever ... You're not ever completely safe from anything. You've always got to look.
Clive Girdham: 17:58 No, that's good. That's powerful, I get that.
Sam Ovens: 18:03 You spotted this problem and you wanted to help them. What happened next? How did you think you were going to be able to help them?
Clive Girdham: 18:17 Okay, I guess what I've done is I've seen other models out there. I've done other programs, I've seen other people doing stuff. The impetus really was your program because I had that in me all the time, but I never really had the kick. This is week one, this is week two, this is week three, that kind of thing. I was like on the fence and I'd just done a course, a coaching course. And I just felt really, really good about it. I had seen a few people face-to-face. And then I bought your course.
Clive Girdham: 19:01 I absolutely procrastinated for about three weeks, "Do I buy? Do I buy? Do I buy?" I was watching the webinar and I had the page there so I could still buy now. And then I bought it. And then I think I got to about week ... The transformation for me was week two when you said the line, "Do you even think you have the slim opportunity of being successful?" Do you know that one?
Sam Ovens: 19:31 Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Clive Girdham: 19:34 There's the silence, and there's me in my head going, "Yeah! Yeah, yeah!" And you go, "You've got no chance." Back in my head I was going, "Fuck you!" You know? "I can do this, I can do this, I can do this." But, then I stepped back and go, "You know what? I'm going to listen to this guy. I'm 30 years his senior, but I'm going to listen to him."And then that was like a light bulb for me, transformation. You are a human becoming a human being. And that's what happened.
Clive Girdham: 20:10 I then immediately went into action. I think I got to the sales script and thought, "Whoa, not sure I could do this." But, thought, "What the hell?" I put out a feeler on the email. I've got a very small modest list of about 300 people and I think 70 came back with an inquiry. And I converted ... So, your 3% rule worked perfectly because out of 300 or so people, I got 8 buyers. It was spot on.
Sam Ovens: 20:48 And what did you say in the email?
Clive Girdham: 20:52 I used some kind of provocative language around words like inner circle or limited mentees, that kind of thing. I made it very, very exclusive. I'm considering creating an inner circle of mentees. I'd have to look at the email, but it just came back. Worked great.
Sam Ovens: 21:23 And these were other hypnotherapists you know?
Clive Girdham: 21:26 The list I built up from people who had either bought my course or people who had joined my mastermind. They're all hypnotherapists. I've got a very, very qualified list.
Sam Ovens: 21:38 Got it.
Clive Girdham: 21:39 It's not big, but it's qualified.
Sam Ovens: 21:41 Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Clive Girdham: 21:43 They're bored or they attend.
Sam Ovens: 21:45 And then from the email, did you get them to get on a strategy session?
Clive Girdham: 21:50 Yeah, absolutely. I ended up with 17 sessions. This is only out two weeks ago, so it's really, really fresh. I think the first one, I basically went through line by line. But, by the time I went to my last one, I was quite blase about it because I get the process, the before and after, the responsibility, that kind of thing. I get the ... I chunk up, but the first one was like bam, second one, bam, third one, not interested.
Clive Girdham: 22:29 But, what really shook me, and this what's really shaken my boots, is one person who said, "Oh, I thought it was going to be 10 grand. Not two and a half. Of course, I'm going to sign up." I could have signed up that guy for 10 grand, but it's two and a half because that was the deal at the time. Now, I realize my shift is I've undersold myself.
Sam Ovens: 22:55 That's one person.
Clive Girdham: 22:56 I know!
Sam Ovens: 22:59 But, that doesn't mean you should increase your prices.
Clive Girdham: 23:03 What do you mean by that?
Sam Ovens: 23:05 Well, we're just out to ... We select the price based on what we think it's worth and what we're happy with. And some people think that's really cheap, that's fine. But, we don't change our opinion on it, you know?
Clive Girdham: 23:22 Okay.
Sam Ovens: 23:23 One thing that I really despise is prices that always changed based on the person. You know what I mean? You know those really sketchy companies that never list their pricing and they're like, "We'll do a custom be-spoke solution," which pretty much just means we'll ask you enough questions until we can determine how much we can get out of you, then we'll try and get that out of you.
Clive Girdham: 23:44 Right.
Sam Ovens: 23:45 And then they ... I totally dislike that. And even my marketing team sometimes they're like, "When we advertise into different countries, we should do different price," because different countries might have a worse economy or whatever. I'm like, " No. The price is the price."
Clive Girdham: 24:02 Okay.
Sam Ovens: 24:04 That's what it is and we're happy to get that. Some people will think it's too expensive, some people will think it's too cheap.
Clive Girdham: 24:11 Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Ovens: 24:12 But, that's what it is.
Clive Girdham: 24:14 Got it. I think the point is what I learned from that was that people ... I took the $2,500 dollar coaching price from what you said. I think you said something along the lines of, "I wouldn't take less than two and a half grand. It should be two and a half upwards." So, I went two and a half grand.
Clive Girdham: 24:38 Then, when the person said to me, "Oh, I thought it was going to be a lot more." I was like, "Really?" For me, it was a realization. It was like, "What? You would pay more?"
Sam Ovens: 24:48 But, not everyone said that, remember?
Clive Girdham: 24:51 I know. Some people wanted to go with the payment plan.
Sam Ovens: 24:55 Yeah. You got to be careful of ones, singles.
Clive Girdham: 24:59 Okay, okay, got it. All right, point taken.
Sam Ovens: 25:02 And I actually think it's good when everyone starts to think, "Whoa, that's cheap." Because that means you're offering a lot of value, you know?
Clive Girdham: 25:10 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 25:11 My premise for accelerator was to make ... I've been to masterminds that are 70 grand and stuff. And my premise for accelerator was to make a $2,000 dollar course better than a $70,000 dollar mastermind.
Clive Girdham: 25:24 Right.
Sam Ovens: 25:28 People think it could be worth way more than two, but I don't care, I want it to be two. And in my mind I'm sometimes thinking, "How can I get it cheaper?"
Clive Girdham: 25:36 Yeah. But, you can scale, you've got numbers. You've got a million on your list, I've got 300.
Sam Ovens: 25:45 But, maybe that scale came from having good value.
Clive Girdham: 25:51 Not disagreeing. [missing audio 00:25:55] ... Put yourself in my shoes, it was like, "Oh wow, okay, that's great. I pay 10 grand, really? Seriously?"
Sam Ovens: 26:05 Take it as a compliment but not a signal to change anything.
Clive Girdham: 26:09 No, exactly. And I love your thing about a hypothesis not a ... I love that whole thing about setting a hypothesis.
Sam Ovens: 26:23 You sent out an email to 300 people, you got 17 strategy sessions, and from that you had ...
Clive Girdham: 26:33 8.
Sam Ovens: 26:33 8. That's a pretty high conversion rate.
Clive Girdham: 26:36 Yep.
Sam Ovens: 26:37 And the people who didn't buy, why didn't they buy? What was their main objection?
Clive Girdham: 26:41 There was a lot of things. There was some logistical things, mothers dying, got to out and look after her, got to go to the UK. There was job market things about not being ... Uncertainty during work. There was stuff. There was no hard no's. Like, "No, that's not for me. I don't know what you're doing." It was just life.
Sam Ovens: 27:08 Got it.
Clive Girdham: 27:08 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 27:10 What was your offer to them? How were you packaging this thing? How are you going to transfer this knowledge to them?
Clive Girdham: 27:18 Okay, I put it out there as a three month or 12 week program. It was a group session every week online, I use Zoom, and a one-on-one every other week. I've created an online portal with 12 sessions with pre-recorded stuff.
Sam Ovens: 27:42 Got it. What's the promise of the overall thing? You're going to help them get clients?
Clive Girdham: 27:48 No, I think when you ... The difference between mentoring and ... You can't make a promise. You cannot guarantee to me, Sam, that I'm going to make a million bucks, you know that. What I'm doing is I'm going to do my very best in three months to actually help the person shift and transform, and become somebody who's got more education, more knowledge, more understanding about what they can actually do. Mindset is one thing, skills is another, tactics, all that stuff.
Clive Girdham: 28:26 I'm just putting out there certain ... I'm going to show you what I do because this is what I do, this is what I do day in, day out. And you want some of this? Then I'm going to show you what I do.
Sam Ovens: 28:37 But, you still need a guiding Polaris start like what we are aiming for, you know?
Clive Girdham: 28:43 Yeah, yeah. The before and after grid, or the before and after ... The pain and the painless, the guiding star is we're going to fill your gaps. We're going to show you, we're going to hand hold you along the way and if there's something that's missing for you, then I'm going to provide what I know. I'm going to show you what I know. I'm going to give you the resources that I have. That's all.
Sam Ovens: 29:14 But, why do they want resources?
Clive Girdham: 29:17 When I talk about resources, I'm not talking about somebody in India, I'm talking about confidence, I'm talking about mindset, I'm talking about belief, internal resources.
Sam Ovens: 29:32 Why do they want that?
Clive Girdham: 29:34 Because they don't have them.
Sam Ovens: 29:35 But, why do they even care that they have them?
Clive Girdham: 29:40 Because without them ... All right, take your own situation. Imagine if you had no self belief. Imagine if you had no [crosstalk 00:29:50].
Sam Ovens: 29:50 But, how would that show itself in life?
Clive Girdham: 29:56 Okay. I think it shows itself by demonstration, by action. And what I do is I set them up with what I call an accountability partner. They've got, every week, they've got an accountability partner where they actually agree what they need to do that they don't want to do. And they go and do it.
Sam Ovens: 30:23 I guess the point I'm trying to get at here is what are they trying to achieve through your course? There's lots of these things like self belief and all of this, but ultimately they're trying to get clients for their hypnotherapy business.
Clive Girdham: 30:40 Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Ovens: 30:42 And to do that they have to have self-belief.
Clive Girdham: 30:45 Sure. What are they getting from my course? What they're getting is somebody ... They're going from alone without any idea about what's happening, any idea about technology, any idea about sales, marketing and getting that knowledge. And then having somebody who's on their back saying, "Okay, come on. Do this, do this, do this." And supporting them. That's what they're getting.
Sam Ovens: 31:16 Got it. And have you started doing the coaching with them yet?
Clive Girdham: 31:20 Starts end of September because I'm putting the whole thing together right now. I've pre-sold it.
Sam Ovens: 31:26 Got it. And then what's your big vision with this? 5 years, 10 years from now, where do you want to take this thing?
Clive Girdham: 31:38 I'll go for one year ahead. One year from now ... Imagine a semester, 4 semesters, 4 blocks of what I'm doing already, so 80 grand. Nothing massive, but 4 sits, 4 intakes if you like, and then it repeats, and repeats, and repeats. It's almost like a college.
Sam Ovens: 32:09 Got it.
Clive Girdham: 32:10 That's next year. Going forward, I think if I use the Facebook marketing material because I've got that existing product, don't forget, I've got the smoking product which is already proofed for concept for the last year and a half, over 200 sold. I think if I release that to America, Canada, and the UK then that's a shitload.
Sam Ovens: 32:41 And what do you think ... How would you explain to people who have no idea what hypnotherapy is? What is it?
Clive Girdham: 32:50 Good question. You see, the problem is there's a lot of myths about hypnotherapy because people see a stage show or they've got hypnosis or hypnotists and all that sort of stuff. All it is, is the ability to make the very, very deep changes very, very quickly through utilizing the power of your own unconscious mind. As you were saying in some of your mindset training, your mind doesn't differentiate between reality and what you actually think. So when you can plant into somebody's head, or get them to practice in their own mind, what they want, then they get it.
Sam Ovens: 33:40 And how does hypnotherapy get that in there?
Clive Girdham: 33:46 There's a scientific explanation and a woo-woo explanation. Which one do you want?
Sam Ovens: 33:56 Both.
Clive Girdham: 33:57 Of course, you do. Scientifically, you're wide awake right now. It's like ... I don't know, what time is it in New York right now?
Sam Ovens: 34:06 9:45 AM.
Clive Girdham: 34:08 Yeah, because it's late. It's almost midnight in fricking Sydney, all right? Your wide awake, your brain, if you put yourself on a brain scan it would be going theta, theta, theta, theta. And as you start slowing down, dreaming, and getting quieter, you got through theta all the way down to delta, theta to delta. Your brain waves get slower. Do you know what it's like when you wake up in the morning and you're not ready to go to work?
Sam Ovens: 34:38 Yeah.
Clive Girdham: 34:40 And you're just like, "Uh." Just comfortable and relaxed? But, you know you have to go to the gym. You know you have to get out of bed and do work, yeah? And your body is saying, "No, just a few more minutes." Or whatever it might be.
Sam Ovens: 35:00 A few more hours.
Clive Girdham: 35:01 Two more hours, just two more hours. God, I know that. I've got three dogs, just two more hours. That's the point when you're very, very suggestible and that's the point that you say, "No, fuck it. I'm getting up now. I'm going to go and do my work. I'm going to do what Seth Godin says, I'm going to go ship." And that's when you get up. But, you've already ... In that moment, you've programmed yourself. And that's a very suggestible state and that's what hypnotherapy is. It gets you into a very, very suggestible state.
Sam Ovens: 35:38 So, it's why colts make people not sleep so they can break down their beliefs? Military does it, too.
Clive Girdham: 35:48 You go to a Tony Robbins seminar, who's by the way a hypnotherapist, and [missing audio 00:35:55].
Sam Ovens: 35:59 Sorry, I didn't hear that, the connection broke.
Clive Girdham: 36:03 Okay. Go to a Tony Robbins seminar, you know Tony Robbins?
Sam Ovens: 36:07 Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Clive Girdham: 36:08 Yeah? You'll be at that until 1 AM. And then eventually you'll be buying the product because that's the way it works. Tony Robbins, fantastic guy, he's a hypnotherapist. He knows how the mind works. You don't have to be tortured by bamboo under your fingernails to actually get change.
Sam Ovens: 36:38 It's interesting, there's this billionaire corporate raider in America called Carl Icahn. He's probably one of the best ... He's got better financial performance than Warren Buffet. He's real smart, he's like a genius. I read his book and what his age old tactic when he would go, he'd buy stock and do a hostile takeover of a public company, right? And what he would do is he would start buying up the stock, then he'd schedule a meeting with the executives and the board, and he would always schedule it for 9:30, 10:30 PM at night, right?
Clive Girdham: 37:16 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 37:16 Because he knew that the execs would have to work through the whole day. He would stay in bed all day until about 4, then he'd get up and go to the gym and stuff. And then he would arrive two and a half hours late, so now it's 12 o'clock. Now, he just talks about just the details that don't matter for three hours straight. Now it's 3 AM in the morning. These people have been working since 8. And now he gets into the negotiations.
Clive Girdham: 37:47 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 37:47 And he just said it's worth it for him because sometimes he gets an extra 500 million just because people just want to go home.
Clive Girdham: 37:56 That's exactly right. "Get me out of here! Okay, I'll sign up! Where do I sign this? Where's my pen?"
Sam Ovens: 38:01 Yeah, I guess logic goes out the door when someone just wants to go to bed.
Clive Girdham: 38:07 Yeah. That's your unconscious mind going, "Okay, come on. Whatever it takes." That's the scientific version. Now you can get the woo-woo version.
Sam Ovens: 38:20 What's that one?
Clive Girdham: 38:24 That one is it just works. It's just some sort of mind-fuck. It comes over you and people do things, and whatever. Basically, it doesn't matter if you do acupuncture, massage, aromatherapy. If you, the client ... Say you've got a problem, okay? So, Sam has got back ache, neck ache, anxiety. If you have an expectation that the practitioner that you're going to is going to help you, expectation is like placebo. Secondly, if we like each other, then that's a good thing. Thirdly, if I'm believing what I'm doing, then hell, it transmits. Your expectation, our relationship, and my belief are the biggest factors in your recovery. That's it.
Sam Ovens: 39:20 Got it. And is subliminal messaging kind of like a form of hypnosis?
Clive Girdham: 39:30 No, no. That's ... Hypnosis is a state of mind that you are in and out of all the time. You might be more receptive to a subliminal message when you're in a different state of mind. If you're super busy, then you're not going to get a subliminal message. But, if you're engaged and focused, as you are right now, then you might get the message.
Sam Ovens: 40:02 Got it. Subliminal messaging ... I mean, sorry, hypnosis is when you change someone's state so they're more relaxed and sleepy, and then transmit the message?
Clive Girdham: 40:15 It can work two ways. Relaxed and sleepy is the traditional mindset about what hypnosis is. But, you can make massive, massive changes with people during a simple conversation without going ... All this stuff. What you do is ... The critical thing is to actually absorb someone's attention. I could say something to you, for example, Sam, I could say, "Look, Sam. I've got this real ... I could tell you what really happened today, it was so interesting." Then I break state and I go off to something else. I go, "Look! Oh! By the way, I've got Ogilvy on Advertising." But, your mind is still thinking about that very interesting thing that I haven't told you about.
Clive Girdham: 41:13 It's called the Zirconia effect. You then become very receptive to what I say to you. It's interesting.
Sam Ovens: 41:23 That's why I don't watch TV series.
Clive Girdham: 41:25 No don't.
Sam Ovens: 41:26 Because at the end of them they open up a new loop and I'm like, "I got no closure from this hour."
Clive Girdham: 41:33 No closure!
Sam Ovens: 41:33 I like movies because it goes for two and it's done.
Clive Girdham: 41:38 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 41:39 We get it done and then there's not opening another loop.
Clive Girdham: 41:45 The brain does not like an unsatisfactory un-closure. You want closure every time.
Sam Ovens: 41:57 Yeah.
Clive Girdham: 42:01 Give me some feedback, what do you think about what I'm doing?
Sam Ovens: 42:06 I think it's good. It's a good niche, you have experience in it, which means that ... I always like looking at things that people can say they can do that others can't. For example, I can't come in and say that I can do what you do because you've done it, which is a good mode. And then once you start getting lots of really good results, it's more of a mode.
Sam Ovens: 42:37 I look a lot for, number one would be the passion for the thing, that's the most important. Then number two would be the uniqueness of the thing and then the differentiation against other people doing the unique thing.
Clive Girdham: 42:55 Right. Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 42:58 For example if you said you did Facebook ads for dentists and you had never been a dentist, and probably didn't know Facebook ads, and weren't doing it for any other reason other than wanting to buy a car. Then, that would be on this side of the scale, like shit. And then on the other side is someone doing something they're really passionate about.
Clive Girdham: 43:20 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 43:20 Typically, you see the unique things come out on this side and then the mundane things down here.
Clive Girdham: 43:25 Yeah. Look, the way I think about it is I'm made 13 to 18 grand, I can't remember what it is, from 130 bucks in Australia with no paid advertising about from two newsletters. In Australia there's 10 thousand hypnotherapist. In America, just scale it, I don't know, it's 10 times the population, there's 100,000. In the UK there's 40,000. In Canada there's 30,000. My market is a million?
Sam Ovens: 44:09 Yeah, but it's ... How do they get those numbers?
Clive Girdham: 44:18 My numbers are from lists from two of the major organizations in Australia. For example, there's two major organizations, which I've got access to 8,000 emails.
Sam Ovens: 44:39 But, do you think those really represent reality?
Clive Girdham: 44:39 Well, people have signed up and paid.
Sam Ovens: 44:42 What I'm saying is that there is no such thing, really, as an actual explicitly defined market. These are categories invented by humans.
Clive Girdham: 44:53 True.
Sam Ovens: 44:54 And the categories have edge cases.
Clive Girdham: 44:56 True.
Sam Ovens: 44:57 And there are people who are kind of hypnotherapists, there's people who want to become hypnotherapists. There's people who are interested in hypnotherapy, there's people who have read a hypnotherapy book and don't know if they could do it, but if they did know that, then they might change their mind and become a hypnotherapist. The market is whatever the hell we want.
Clive Girdham: 45:19 That's powerful, I like that because if you-
Sam Ovens: 45:22 It's like people say with me, consultants. I just use that word, but really we make people who aren't even interested in starting a business a consulting business.
Clive Girdham: 45:33 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 45:34 People who don't think they're consultants like, "I guess I'm classified as a consultant." It's not just consultants.
Clive Girdham: 45:40 Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Ovens: 45:42 Nor is it just hypnotherapists, there is no defined market.
Clive Girdham: 45:48 Okay, if only I took the people who are registered, so 10,000 in Australia, they're just [missing audio 00:45:55] ... Still, a hypnotherapist. If only I took that market and then extrapolated to US, Canada, UK and then I added to people who want to think about it, and people who want to come back into it and it's massive.
Sam Ovens: 46:23 And the people who aren't registered because you don't need to register.
Clive Girdham: 46:23 That's the bigger market.
Sam Ovens: 46:24 Exactly.
Clive Girdham: 46:24 Bigger market. They do weekend courses.
Sam Ovens: 46:28 That's why I don't have any certificates because I hate them.
Clive Girdham: 46:31 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 46:32 I don't like labels at all, so I make a stand to never have one.
Clive Girdham: 46:36 But, you had done that on that ...
Sam Ovens: 46:39 Because it makes you think that you're already there. That's the worst part.
Clive Girdham: 46:45 And I love that thing you say about the entitlement. Someone who's got a certificate, a degree, an MBA, or whatever, they ... "I'm entitled."
Sam Ovens: 46:55 It's my customers.
Clive Girdham: 46:58 You're not, you're not, you're not. You're absolutely not. You've got to do the fucking hard yards, you've got to drag your chair, in the hypnotherapy world, like 5 ... No, not 5. 10 years ago, I've got this heavy, bulky chair every weekend, taking it down to a clinic room and putting it in there and hoping people would turn up. No! No. You've got to do the hard yards.
Clive Girdham: 47:23 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 47:24 Yeah and you're only counting the people who have the certificates. What my point is, is that it's so much bigger than you think when you put in the edge cases and the uncertified people.
Clive Girdham: 47:37 I'm writing down, right now, edge cases. I love that.
Clive Girdham: 47:47 Yeah.
Sam Ovens: 47:54 Cool. Well, what would your ... We can wrap up with this question for the other members of the program. What would your number one piece of advice be for them?
Clive Girdham: 48:08 Action. I think I heard your message in week one or week two about some people will be already getting a return on investment. And I was thinking, "Yeah, I'm going to be one of those people." So, action. Perfectionism is the killer, just as Seth Godin says, just ship. If you got an idea, put it out there, beater one, beater two, beater three, just do it. Test the market, go out there and really just ... You could be totally screwed in terms of what you want to do, but if you get a really good reaction, which is what I did in I think week two or week three, I was thinking, "Holy crap."
Clive Girdham: 48:55 And then I got into your sales script, I thought, "Well, you know what? Part of me doesn't want to do that, but I'm going to give it a go. I'm going to sit there and I'm going to be very formal with somebody as opposed to my normal informal self. And I'm going to go through the sales script." Holy crap, it worked. Action. Put out your hypothesis, see if there's a market out there. If there's one person, test it. In all likelihood there's going to be more than one person.
Sam Ovens: 49:32 Awesome.
Clive Girdham: 49:33 I like what you said, it's the edge cases.
Sam Ovens: 49:36 Cool. How can people learn more about you if they want to look you up online?
Clive Girdham: 49:43 Oh god, would they want to? I'm joking. I've got my ... My name is CliveGirdham.com. No, that's my website. My name is Clive Girdham. It's Sydney, it's SydneyCityhypnotherapy. com.au and in the world it's CliveGirdham.com. And that's an experimental thing with your fragmentation funnel, by the way.
Sam Ovens: 50:11 Got it. Cool.
Clive Girdham: 50:14 I was already invested in another CRM, hence [inaudible 00:50:18].
Sam Ovens: 50:19 Got it.
Clive Girdham: 50:20 But, I would recommend, anyone who's got zero background in CRMs and funnels and everything, just to do what you're recommending because there's going to be many people that have not seen, I think it's week 5 or whatever, assembling your machine. They're not even there yet and they don't have a CRM, they don't have a list, they don't have all that stuff. Just leave everything blank and follow your stuff.
Sam Ovens: 50:47 Awesome. Well, thanks for jumping on and sharing your story.
Clive Girdham: 50:52 Sam, thanks a lot and I really appreciate my 10X return on investment.
Sam Ovens: 50:59 It's just the start.
Clive Girdham: 51:03 Damn right.
Sam Ovens: 51:04 Cool, we'll see you later.
Clive Girdham: 51:07 Cheers, Sam.